Jewel Woods

Ebony Magazine Interview

Submitted by emre on Sat, 05/03/2008 - 15:19.

What led you to write Don't Blame It On Rio: The Real Deal Behind why Men Go to Brazil for Sex?
Answer: The short answer to this question is that the book is a response to an article written in Essence Magazine that originally brought attention to this phenomenon. I thought the writer -Jelani Cobb- did an excellent job of introducing the topic, but that the article was understandably circumscribed by its length and limited by its lack of exposure and lack of knowledge concerning the complex issues that were involved. Overall, I thought the Essence article "exposed" the phenomena but ultimately did not "shed light" into the profound realities & crisis of masculinity, morality, and male privilege that black men are confronted with and so I thought the book would be a more appropriate response.

The longer answer to this question is embedded in my personal history. I have spent all of my adult life working on men's issues and several years trying to understand this particular phenomenon of men traveling overseas to find what they think they cannot get in America and/or from black women. One of the way's that I have tried to explain to people how I became aware of these issues is that I went to the academy to learn about men, but I stepped out of the academy to learn from men. When I received a New Voices Fellowship in 2005, it allowed me to work full-time on men's issues, I was primarily interested in the question of how could I get more men of color involved in social welfare and social justice issues; especially initiatives that were aimed at reducing violence against women. One of the things that became very apparent to me in talking with men, was that it was not just the men without jobs or who were marginally connected to the economy that were not active or involved in community initiatives. It was also men with jobs whose issues and stories were not being examined, explored, or exposed. So taking all theses issues into consideration, this is a book that I have been working on all of my adult life because of my interest in men's lives and a belief in men's capacity to change.

Were you surprised by your findings?
Answer: This is a hard question for me to answer now because I have been dealing with these topics for so long. I think initially I was surprised by the scope or scale- simply in terms of how widespread it was. The fact that so many brothers had been or that so many brothers had known about it was surprising. However, I became more surprised- and to a large extent, this is what the book is all about- about the scope and scale of this phenomenon in terms of how deep, penetrating, and profound the experiences are to the minds, hearts, and imaginations of men.

The other thing I was surprised about was the type of alienation and isolation felt by members within the black middle class. Other writers have captured this sentiment, whether it is Ellis Cose The Rage of a Privileged Class: Why Do Prosperous Blacks Still Have the Blues?, Feagin & Sikes? Living With Racism: The Black Middle Class Experience, Jennifer L. Hochschild Facing Up To The American Dream, or the recent Pew Study that showed the decline in optimism of black progress. All of these important works in some way or another describe the price that African Americans pay, not for being isolated or marginalized in the traditional sense of these words, but the price African Americans pay for being selectively incorporated and connected to mainstream society. However, very few of these works have captured how men that are middle class or professional class deal with this type of alienation differently from middle class or professional women. So again, what was striking was how powerful and potent men's experiences overseas were. Finally, I was surprised about specific things covered in the book like the role that college played in the formation of middle class masculinity and sexuality, how older men deal with sexuality, and how men try to support other men etc.

Some of the stories seem apocryphal. You write, for example, "Brazil sets the stage for Black men to go out and literally enact hip-hop masculinity and sexuality in ways that are influenced by the images that other Black men provide...'' Can you delve explain this little more?
Answer: I will try to answer this question in two parts. I will start off with the second part because I think it helps with the first part. In terms of the Hip Hop, much of Hip Hop acts like a musical form of Viagra. Just like Viagra, Hip Hop gets men up/erect and ready to perform in a certain way. The chapter on Hip Hop was about how Hip Hop frames men's experiences- particularly younger African American men. How it provides both the context and the content for certain behaviors like "compulsive" heterosexuality. One of the things that I do not go into the book and which may not be clear is the profound distinctions men make among each other based on age differences. Men that are older and/or have been traveling to Rio for years-sometimes decades- feel that younger men are bringing their own culture. Older men feel like younger guys are messing things up? As a result there is a lot of bitterness and resentment among older men, as an example; there was one man who refereed to the older days as "gentleman's agreement? Overall, the take home lessons for that chapter has to do with: 1) How Hip Hop erases middle class masculinity and sexuality 2) How Rio and the sex scene provides a powerful template for men to enact what some hip hop scholars refer to as the new church, 3) how Hip Hop gives an illusion that poor or working poor black men are the most hyper-masculine sexually, despite all the data which suggests that professional men of all races & ethnicities have more sex and with more partners over their life time than do poor men.

That being said, if you men by "apocryphal" you mean "of doubtful authorship or authenticity" I would state the obvious; there is actually no need to make up stories about what men say or do in Rio. Hundreds of thousands of men travel overseas each year to participate in these types of experiences. African American men are simply joining the long ranks of men from around the world- especially white American & European men- that travel overseas and have intercourse with a set of ideas about manhood and masculinity. More importantly, men are very good at telling their own stories about their experiences. It happens all the time in male culture. Contrary to the myth that only women gossip, men also gossip, and all the time. Part of the problem is most people- including many professionals- are not willing, interested, or competent to listen to men's narratives or to provide an interpretive lens for explaining what they are actually saying.

What is usually hard for people to believe (more women than men) is that there is nothing in the U.S. that approximates what men experience overseas. There is nothing like a Terma in the U.S. or Club Help. People can't imagine one man having sex with more than seven different women in one day etc. The reason why I believe men share their stories with me is because: 1) I have been able to convince men that they have an important story to tell. 2) That I am less interested in what they do than why they do it 3) that I can be critical without being condemning, and 4) the most obvious is that one does not participate in such powerful experiences and not want to share it. Finally, it does not hurt that I'm a brother and that I have never been interested in who they are as individuals (anonymity) but rather what the collective experience means.

Falling for these stereotypes of Black men (described above) makes Brazilian women appear naïve and vapid. It also makes Black men appear self-loathing. Can you explain the social dynamic and interplay going on here?
Answer: In this culture, what man would not want to feel like Will Smith or Puffy? Alternatively, I should say what they imagine these men feel like. One of the questions this book probes is whether it is hard to believe that men would respond so powerfully and perfectly to being the subject of desire as opposed to feeling like objects of success. Stated differently, is it hard to believe that women want to look like Beyonce or be desired like Halle Berry? Men want to feel like Denzel and that is not a stereotype. It is more wish fulfillment where men seek to acquire a level of identification and a sense of affirmation that is restricted to a small few.

However, I agree, by far, one of the missing gaps in this book are the voices of Brazilian Women. There is an important debate in the literature about the complexity of women that participate in sex tourism. Many people don't see them as just victims or "vapid" to use your word. You can find that debate in such books such as Sexing The Caribbean, Sun, Sex Gold & Tourism, Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets and the Rescue Industry, What's Love Got To Do With It? Transnational Desires And Sex Tourism In The Dominican Republic etc.

What is interesting to me is how men use this complexity to capitalize and argue that their behavior is not really bad.

Black men are pretty critical of sisters. Chapter titles range from "She Acts Like a Man,'' to? The Frigid Black Woman'' to "Fat, Black and Ugly: Size Does Matter!" Do you see shades of Willie Lynch in any of this?
Answer: Gender is relational, like race is relational. This means that it is easy to make comparisons between groups. Men are compared to women, African Americans are compared to whites and so on. When men come back from Brazil, black women are often compared with Brazilian women. It should be firmly stated that White men participate in the same type of relational comparisons as well. White men come back with complaints about how white women don't look like, act like, and certainly don't have sex like Brazilian women. To demonstrate this point, authors Ryan and Hall (2001) quote one of the characters in a Christopher Moore novel who asserts, " fucking a white woman is a step away from homosexuality". The chapter She Acts Like A Man goes through this argument for black men. I personally don't consider this self-loathing at all. Most of these men are quite self-actualized. For many it will be natural to focus on the chapters that you mention, however the book is equally if not more about how men make distinctions between them and other men, and the deep contradictions and complexities of being a black man in this country. All of which can be found throughout the book and in chapters like: I Thought I Was Going To Die, I'm Addicted, I Am Going To Take My Son, So This I s How It Feels To Be White, Mantle Men etc.

My sincere hope is that this book teaches people about men's lives. Not just how they racialize black women but why. I know that this may be difficult but that is certainly what we need.

Can relationships between Black men and women be salvaged?
Answer: I think this is a tremendously important question, but not necessarily the question that I would have men focus on first. Men have to salvage themselves before they can salvage relationships. I could be wrong, but I don't think that black women want or expect to be in relationships with men until they are whole. When men have engaged in the important "self work" which involves examining and exploring aspects of their lives that are fascinating, frightening and funny; then they can start to think about being in relationships.

One of the first arguments made by men in the book is that any man-especially professional man can get married. However, if we are interested in "sustainable" fathers, "sustainable" husbands, and "sustainable" men, then there must be more of a foundation laid for men to consistently respond to the challenges and opportunities that will invariably come their way. Finally, the reason why I focus on "self work" is because relationships require way more from men than jobs or careers. Men can be very successful at their jobs and display a tremendous amount of skill to be both effective & efficient. But to be in long-term relationships one requires, at a minimum patience, fidelity, integrity, emotional intelligence, resources, non-violence, listening, relationship-based choices like 'doing the right thing' and not necessarily 'being right', a willingness to learn about women's issues, and a sense of humor. When all this fails, it requires the wisdom and courage to seek help.

What are some of the first steps that need to be taken?
Answer: I tell men all the time to work on their humanity first, age appropriate behavior second, and then their manhood will take care of itself.

Men have to spend time delving into their personal and professional lives as much as they do other things they are passionate about like sports. In addition, I would say that professionals that work with men and boys have to be competent. Professionals have to be animated with the question of how do we help, heal, and hold men accountable. Thus far, most people are only interested in holding men accountable. Finally, the black middle class has to start telling its stories. We have to talk about privilege as well as oppression if we are going to prepare future generations to deal with all the complexities and contradictions that they will face as black and as Americans.

What are you working on next?
Answer: In terms of books, there was a lot more material that could not be put in this one project. Therefore, it is exciting to determine which book topic will follow this one. The next thing for me is also to work on building the organization. the Renaissance Male Project Inc. Books are only one of the important tools that I am utilizing to speak to and change men's lives. Last but not least, finish my doctoral education. I put a lot of my education on hold to do this work of focusing on men's lives.